Leaders' Playground
What if work could feel like play? Join Irene Salter PhD for stories, science and strategies that help leaders thrive, not just survive.
Leaders' Playground
1: Rediscovering Joy in Your Work by Harnessing the Power of Play
Welcome to the very first episode of the Leaders' Playground -- a podcast for people who wish their work could feel more like play. In this episode, you’ll hear the origin story of how this podcast came to be and why it's called the Leader’s Playground. I’m your host Irene Salter, a PhD neuroscientist and science educator with a passion for helping people thrive, not just survive. Consider me a story-telling scientist. In this and every episode you will find:
1) A story: Being challenged to create a podcast initially felt heavy and overwhelming, but an excellent question by my friend and coach turned work into something playful and creative. You’ll also hear about a hike up “Death Hill”, and a Dungeons and Dragons game involving cats and Ferris Bueller.
2) Some science: We’ll explore dopamine systems; brain areas like the amygdala and the ventral anterior cingulate cortex; and the research of play scientist, Stuart Brown.
3) A strategy: To start making work feel more like play, begin by identifying what play looks like for you.
Resources:
- Stuart Brown's TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_brown_play_is_more_than_just_fun
- Stuart Brown's book: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/4997659
- David Vox’s website: https://www.davidvox.com/
- Christina Howard’s website: https://www.intentlyco.com/post/meet-christina
For complete show notes, transcript, and free downloadable resources go to: https://www.irenesalter.com/podcast
It's the very first episode of the Leader's Playground Woohoo, I am beyond thrilled. In this episode, you will hear the origin story. How did this podcast come to be and, more importantly, why is it called the Leader's Playground? Hint, it's all about how to make the work of being a leader feel more like play. We're going to touch on dopamine systems, the research of play scientists, stuart Brown, and a D&D game. We'll even pause to reflect on how to bring play into your work. So, without any further ado, welcome to the Leader's Playground. Hi, thank you for listening to the Leader's Playground, the podcast for leaders who wish their work to feel more like play. Leadership can be lonely, overwhelming and just plain crazy making. We are here to rekindle your spark. I'm Irene Salter, your host, and a PhD neuroscientist and science educator with a passion for helping people thrive, not just survive. Please click that follow button so you don't miss a single episode. Today. Let's talk about podcasts. I love podcasts. I listen in the car, when folding the laundry, doing the dishes. Sometimes, if an episode is really, really great, I'll drive into my garage and I'll sit there for 20 minutes just listening. Some of my favorites are Radio Lab, hidden Brain, science of Happiness, ted Radio Hour, critical Role and Anything by Brené Brown. Hi everyone, I'm Brené Brown.
Speaker 1:So there I was in Barcelona hanging out with my coach, david Vox. We had just ended a year-long group coaching experience. There was literally confetti all over the floor. From our celebrations the night before toasting to a huge year of growth and transformation. I was feeling super satisfied, proud and relieved. Finally I could kick my feedback, relax and enjoy the success. And into this beautiful moment, david says hey, irene, you need to start a podcast.
Speaker 1:What All these thoughts happened in my head at once, mostly like are you kidding me? Me a podcast? I'm not Brené Brown. Who the hell is going to listen to me? What would I even talk about? I have nothing interesting or useful to say. There's so many millions of great podcasts out there. There's so many things to listen to. Anything I could possibly come up with must have been said before by somebody else. I'm way too busy anyway, completely satisfied with where I'm at. I just climbed this huge mountain. Nope, no way. Nuh-uh. Every single excuse came up and David pushed me. He said the C word. He said I challenge you Now. At that moment I thought David was the most evil coach I had ever met. David, I love you, but that challenge word, that C word, to my brain is like a flashing neon sign. It's like fireworks. You know the really annoying songs that get stuck in your head, those earworms Challenge is like that for me.
Speaker 1:Before we go too much further, there's a couple things you need to know about me. First of all, I'm a neuroscientist. When interesting things happen, I really want to know what my brain is doing. When my brain latches onto that challenge word or when I have all of those thoughts of no, no way am I doing a podcast. I want to know the neuroscience behind what's going on. I studied all of the neural circuits underlying learning and motivation back in grad school. I was studying rats and teaching them to push levers for food and drug reward. I'm so fascinated by how our brains cause us to create the behaviors we take on in life. The other thing about me is that I'm a science teacher. I've taught every grade, preschools or university. My absolute favorite is middle school. I know that's weird, but I love middle schoolers. Those identities neuroscientists and science teacher they're just baked into me.
Speaker 1:When I noticed my brain latching onto the challenge word and having all of those excuses, I knew there was something happening with my neurotransmitters, my brain areas, all of those neural systems inside of my skull that was making that happen. I was curious what exactly were those words? The challenge, resistance. What was it actually doing to my brain? Well, first of all, I know that dopamine was probably involved. Dopamine is my favorite neurochemical of all time. I talk about it all the time. It is a fascinating chemical because so many people think that it's all about reward, about all of the good things the food, sex, drugs, rock and roll. Thank you really.
Speaker 1:Researchers have found that it's actually about prediction error. So when is it that we have an error in our predictions about the future? And when those errors happen, it's activating and motivating. It drives our wanting and our desire, and those predictions could be good or bad. You could be expecting something really nice and easy and suddenly an even better thing happens. So you're expecting an okay meal and you take a bite and it's absolutely delicious. That's a prediction error on the good side. On the bad side, there's things like stress and shock and loneliness that will increase the amount of dopamine in the brain. So when you're expecting everything to be just fine, I was expecting my conversation with David to be all celebration and toast to my success. Instead, he drops this huge, evil, scary challenge that I really didn't feel prepared for, that challenge of making a podcast. That was a huge dopamine burst in my brain, and not of the good kind.
Speaker 1:Other things that were happening in my brain at the time were memories. So things that happen in our right now, every day, recall certain memories in our brains and the ways that our brains are active. At the time we lay down the memories. When we bring them back up again, the same patterns happen. So the thing that I was thinking about at that time was all of my high school teachers talking about challenge questions and extra credit or bonus points. My parents would praise me when I took up those teachers and I got those A pluses for those over and above efforts. And I also, let's be honest, was super disappointed when I got anything less than an A. And let's not talk about the times that I broke into tears after just getting an A minus on a midterm. Those are not my best moments.
Speaker 1:I've always been worried about being good enough, about being excluded or not belonging. In this case, about being challenged to a podcast. All of those memories about overachieving and perfectionism and pleasing and not being good enough. Those all came up the same cells let's say they're A, b and C, which were lighting up, and X, y and Z getting super quiet back in high school when that high school teacher said well, the challenge question is that same echo repeated in my brain when I heard David talk and those ABC neurons were bright as a Christmas tree and XYZ was so silent Back then and the same as now. That C word triggers a threat response. That threat response makes me worry about am I good enough? Is this going to be okay? My amygdala activates Amygdala is this really cool little brain area down deep in the bottom of your brain and it activates that stress response. It activates cortisol and adrenaline and courses it through the system. In that moment when David told me to make a podcast for sure, cortisol and adrenaline had a big burst in my body.
Speaker 1:Finally, what else was happening was huge self consciousness, huge imposter syndrome. I was comparing myself immediately to all my favorite amazing podcasts and all these feelings of self-doubt and shame about little old me trying to enter the podcast arena rose up. When that happens, there's another part of your brain called the ventral interior singular cortex that goes nuts. And don't blame me for naming these brain areas. They are really ridiculously long, can't help it. What people who study the ventral interior singular cortex find out is that if you record from those brain areas Animals like humans or primates or rats when they're making decisions in times of uncertainty, that part of the brain goes haywire. It lights up when you're feeling rejected or feeling ashamed. And if you have low self-esteem, that ventral interior cingulate cortex lights up even brighter than in people with normal or high self-esteem. But that's the part of your brain that lights up when you're self-conscious and you're worried about whether or not you're good enough. And imposter syndrome as it reared up was totally on for me.
Speaker 1:So the surface problem I couldn't figure out how to do a podcast. I didn't have the tools. I'd never learned how to do this. This was not my area of expertise at all. I might be a scientist, but put a microphone in front of me and I kind of seize up and freak out. That's the surface stuff, though the deeper part is that the podcast felt like work. It didn't feel fun at all, it felt scary.
Speaker 1:There was a time when I was hiking to Caribou Lake. I was backpacking with my boyfriend at the time, who's now my husband. I call it Death Hill. We had just climbed a whole lot of elevation. We had gotten to the bottom of the next little hill and I just bonked. I was so tired. I looked at that next hill and I said no way, I can't do it. I sat down and I almost cried. My boyfriend, he picked up my backpack, walked it up for me and says come on, you can do this. And off I went. But it felt that whole time like work, like I had just accomplished this big task, this whole year of change and elevating my business. How in the world am I gonna add something else? How am I gonna climb one more hill? All I wanted was to sit down and stay exactly where I was.
Speaker 1:I really couldn't figure out how to make a podcast fun, how to make it not feel like work, how to not feel like a huge extra climb. It seemed scary and daunting. It was all work and no play. That's when a friend of mine, christina Howard, who's also an exceptional leadership coach, she came into the picture and she asked me a question when she heard that I was struggling with how to make a podcast fun, how to make it not feel like work. She asked me what's the most fun thing in your life right now? That got me thinking.
Speaker 1:The thing that was most fun in my life was this D&D game that I was planning for my kids. Now, for those of you who don't know, d&d is Dungeons and Dragons. There was a movie about it a little while ago. It's this fantasy game, kind of like a choose your own adventure game. Every player who plays chooses an identity that they want to be, and then the storyteller, who's called the Dungeon Master, crafts the story and leads the players through this choose your own adventure. Anytime, things may be a little uncertain. The players will roll dice to figure out what to do next, and the dice will tell them whether they succeed or fail. Now the D&D game I was planning was all of the kids were going to be cats who really, really, really wanted to go to school with the teenagers they belong to, and so I had created this whole fantasy world with a high school and cats and all of my kids being the players. And then I decided to toss in, unbeknownst to the players, an extra thing the day they went to school was gonna be the day that Ferris Bueller took off and it combined all of my favorite things my kids, dungeons and Dragons, ferris Bueller, ferraris. We ended up having kids driving school buses actually, kids that were cats driving school buses. It was so creative, so silly, so unexpected. It was utter play and that was the thing for sure. That was the most fun in my life.
Speaker 1:And then Christina asked me another question so how could you make the podcast feel like that, feel like fun, feel like play? And I had an aha moment. I was so surprised that this could even be possible. But as soon as I started thinking of it, all these light bulbs went on in my mind. The first thing that came up was this idea that Stuart Brown said in his TED Talk. Now Stuart Brown has been studying play for his entire career. He literally wrote the book on play and in his TED Talk he says what I would encourage on an individual level to do is to explore it backwards as far as you can go to the most clear, joyful, playful image that you have A toy on a birthday, on a vacation and then begin to build from that emotion into how it connects with your life right now. And that was what Christina was telling me to do. She was telling me to connect to the things that I found joyful and playful and fun and build that into my podcast Now, stuart Brown.
Speaker 1:He talks about different kinds of play. He talks about body play, the ways that we play with our bodies and how we move, we get ourselves out of gravity, we jump into water holes, we climb on trees, we play on a swing set, we dance, we paddleboard and stand on water Like our bodies in motion in unusual ways feels like play. Other ways that we play is with objects, like I watch my daughter play with clay or my son play with Legos, me when I get into a craft like my knitting, or me in my garden just playing with my plants. Somehow playing with objects when you open-endedly explore a thing can be so much fun in terms of play. We also engage in social play, where we have social connection with other people. Often it's rough and tumble like a tickle fight, but sometimes it's competitive, like sports and games. All of that social play begins with that moment when a baby is born and you look into a baby's eyes and you look and try to catch their tension and make them smile, and social play is all about that social connection in all sorts of other ways. And another final way is fantasy play. That's storytelling and fantasy novels and flights of the imagination and daydreaming. It's also D&D and Dungeons and Dragons. All of these types of play. None of them are an intellectual thing. You know it when you feel it.
Speaker 1:Stuart Brown actually avoids defining play. He says defining play is like trying to explain a joke. He defeats the purpose. Let's take a pause here. I want to offer you a strategy for you to build this into your own life. Play looks different for every person. That's why Stuart Brown doesn't want you to come up with a definition of play.
Speaker 1:I want you to think about the question that Christina asked me what was the most fun thing in your life right now? When was the last time your brain was in a full on play state? What were you doing? How did it feel? So think about that for a second and then, once you've got that, how could you build a little bit of that into your everyday?
Speaker 1:If you have trouble with figuring out how could you make a little more play happen in your everyday, I recommend a couple things. First, you can go play with a dog. Dogs just naturally know how to play wrestle, play tug of war, throw a ball around or hang out with a little kid, ideally under the age of five, but don't be that creepy person on the playground. Do something with that little kid, or even go back to the things that you used to do for fun as a kid. Was it swinging on a swing or doodling, or playing with Legos or making mud pies? Just do that and see what happens. I would love to hear what you think is play and how you're planning to build that into your everyday. So stay in touch with me. My website is IreneSultercom. Visit me there and let me know. Alright, back to the show.
Speaker 1:What makes something play? There are some common aspects to what makes something play. First of all, it's voluntary. It's not a parent purpose. Nobody tells you to do it, nobody pays you to do it. Once you start, you don't want to stop. Another thing about play is it's engaging, it's fun, it's arousing, it's not boring, and once you're doing it, you don't want to stop.
Speaker 1:The next one is that it's open. There's chance, there's serendipity, there's flow. You change course as things happen and change in the middle of the game. And last two, there's a sense of timelessness and selflessness, the sense of time and of yourself alters. There's no need to look good, you don't realize how much time has passed, you don't care what others think, you just fall into the zone. You're there in the moment and time and space and self vanish. You're just there and in that setting, in that thought, when Christina asked how could you make a podcast feel like play, all sorts of stuff happened in my brain. First, those same brain areas and neurochemicals that activated with the word challenged. They shifted. So remember, when the podcast was work, my brain released dopamine. But that was a bad thing. There was that prediction era of what I expected to happen, which was to celebrate, and instead I got this big surprise of a new challenge, another hill to climb. But now, when imagining how a podcast might be play, dopamine released again, and this time it was tinged with possibility. What if I broke the rules of podcasting? What if it wasn't interviews and not just someone talking at you, but a story? What if it was actually fun for me and also for listeners? Now remember dopamine releases with prediction error. What if I did something different than you expected it to be? And that's when I remembered my evil coach. David once upon a time suggested that I name one of my programs, the leaders playground, and that was it. How could I make work feel like play? And that's how this podcast was born. I want this podcast to be the place where you can find out how your work can feel like play. Now we're getting somewhere Elsewhere in my brain my amygdala got super quiet.
Speaker 1:Remember how the amygdala is a threat detector. It detects when you might be in a situation that's scary, that's threatening, where there's stress. Well, what's really interesting about your amygdala on play is that when you're playing, there's a cannabinoid boost to the amygdala. Yep, that's right. What happens is that you basically, when you play, inject the active ingredient in marijuana cannabinoids into the brain's threat centers. It quiets the amygdala down and allows you the ability to play Ha ha cool. The other part of my brain that got super quiet is that tongue twister part, the ventral anterior cingulate cortex.
Speaker 1:I didn't have a fear of rejection. I didn't have self-consciousness anymore because I'm gonna do something totally different. I didn't have the self-doubt or the worries about uncertainty Well, I still have a little bit of it but there was an ease and an openness, a little bit of a selflessness. What if I didn't stick to just leadership, coaching or neuroscience. What if I could bring in D&D and cats and hiking and travel, paddle boarding and swing dancing. What if I could bring in all my favorite things? It was a mashup, just like when cats go to school, that D&D adventure. It'd be storytelling and science and strategies, putting all of those things into practice. And the reason why I feel like this is so important is because we as adults, we sometimes forget to play. We think that, oh, we don't have time for that or oh, we're too busy. But when people or animals get play deprived, we lose part of ourselves.
Speaker 1:There's this really interesting study about animals rats who love to play. Now, rats, when you let them into an enriched environment, they will do all sorts of funny things. They'll interact with each other, they'll play with toys. Well, there was a group of rats that were allowed to play and another group of rats where anytime the rats tried to engage and play, they got a shock on the floor. So all of a sudden it felt as if they touched one of those doorknobs where you get a little static electric shock. And over the course of a week that play response got weaned out of that one group of rats. Later on, both groups were given a collar of a cat so that cat smelled. That cat smell was all inside of that collar.
Speaker 1:The group of rats that were allowed to play they hid. They found a place to hide and they stayed super still and they didn't wanna come out for a bit. But slowly, slowly, they started to come out. They sniffed, they explored. Eventually they realized this thing was okay and they came back out and started to go back about their regular business again. Well, the ones that got shocked, the ones where they had their play taken out of them, the play deprived rats, never came out. They stayed hidden for hours and hours. They'd probably still be hiding if they didn't know that the collar was gone.
Speaker 1:And that's what happens in humans when we get the play taken out of us. We hide, we go inside. We don't have the same resilience to the everyday changes and to threats that actually come into the environment. You can see that when you have play deprivation in places like orphanages or prisons or poverty or war, when you can't play, then all sorts of terrible things happen to our mental health. Life without play it's not just no more sports and games. There's no more books or arts, movies, music, dancing. There's no comedy or jokes. There's no creativity. You don't get resilience and flexible thinking. You don't have grit or perseverance in the face of adversity. You have to be able to play, to learn to have passion, to develop emotional intelligence, to trust other people and develop a social connection, to have romance and flirting and fun.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, work has become a place with so little play for all of us. What I wanna do is I wanna help you find play again and bring that all back. And so this podcast is here. I'm here to take a stand to say that we adults need to play more and we need to play in our work. I want this podcast to feel like play for you, and I want your leadership and your life to feel like play. Yeah, yeah, stuart Brown ends his TED talk with this little gem. So I would encourage you all to engage, not in a work play differential, where you set aside time to play, but where your life becomes infused, minute by minute, hour by hour, with all kinds of play. And that's my goal To create a play state in your brain and rediscover the fun in our work and in our everyday. Keep listening and I'll tell you how.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining me for the first episode of Leaders Playground. A special thanks to my producer, tyler Lockamy. Down in the show notes you'll find links to Stuart Brown, david Vox and Christina Howard. I've also linked a few blog posts and videos so that you can learn more about the science of play Before you go. I have two big, huge favors to ask. First, if you have a friend who is just surviving, not thriving, please tell them about the Leaders Playground. I would love to welcome them here. Secondly, please click that follow button on Spotify, google, apple or wherever you get your podcasts. I really don't want you to miss next week's episode. I'm gonna tell you why. I have three bobble headed toys sitting on a shelf above my desk. Hmm, curious.
